Episode 6: EDM Council: Advocates for the Value of Data Management

John: One of the key drivers for us is not just to look at data from a financial and marketing perspective, but how we can provide guidance around data for good.

Nick: Welcome to InConfidence, the podcast for data ops leaders. In each episode, we ask thought leaders a to break down the topics and trends concerning data professionals today, and to give us their take on what the data landscape will look like tomorrow. Let’s join the data conversation. I’m Nick Curcuru and this is the InConfidence podcast sponsored by Privitar. InConfidence is a community of data practitioners that encourages conversations that will enlighten, educate and inform data leaders of today. And tomorrow. Thank you for taking the time to let InConfidence be part of your day. Today joining our community is John Bottega. Well, John is the president of the EDM Council. He has been at the forefront of all things data, his entire career, in 2006, John became one of the first Chief Data Officers, but I’m gonna go out on a limb and say he was the founding father of chief data officers for all of us. So he’s been in that position whether it was at Citibank, Bank of America or even in public office, at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. John, welcome to the InConfidence community. 

John: Thank you, Nick, a pleasure to be here. 

Nick: Well, John, the other part is not just being the chief data officer, but you’re also the president of the president EDM Council. And I would just like it if you can, you know, tell us about this fantastic journey that you’ve been on in your career? I mean, just walk us through how you know, you started out and are the only data officer moving through and eventually found yourself to the EDM Council. 

John: Sure, Nick, thanks. And thanks for the reference of being one of the founding fathers though I feel like one of the founding grandfather’s at this point. So I mean, a little bit about myself and my journey out of university, I was an application developer for 10 years, and at a consultancy, and then five years at Merrill Lynch. And I had a great opportunity to go over to Lehman Brothers in the early 90s. Initially, as an application developer, then someone came in and said, Would you like to run this new group that’s being created called a data quality group. And in that capacity in that role, I always look at that as kind of a turning point for me, because now I suddenly had to look at the content, not just the technology, so had a team of analysts to back then would read the prospectus of a new issued instrument bond or stock and enter data into, you know, one of the early databases and track the pricing on the exchanges, and so forth. So he was in that early exposure, that we really had to focus on the data, the quality of the data, the meaning of the data, and that really set me in my career to be someone who focused on the content, did that for 10 years of living, very successfully built some of the early databases on Wall Street with what we used to call security masters, price masters, customer, masters, etc. Fast forward a bit, another five years at Maryland, so 10 years, they are as well. And as you mentioned, in 2005-2006, I was hired into the city as one of the first Chief Data Officers. I could tell you that being the first in any kind of a role is exciting, but you have to explain to every meeting, you go to what your role is. So a chief data officer had to explain that throughout. But in retrospect, if you think about it, in really a short period of time, just a matter of 10 years, the role of the chief data officer one from one or two of us to now literally in every every industry, finance, non finance government, you know, have established chief data officers throughout the industry, which is really exciting for the role. Just to round off my role was at Citi and then the financial crisis hit. So Nick, as I fast forward, I had a really, really great opportunity in being recruited into the Federal Reserve Bank in New York and the Federal Reserve System, right at the heart, right, the beginning of the financial crisis. And it was clearly one of the most fascinating periods of my career. I spent a lot of time in New York and a lot of time in Washington. As part of that role. I was given a dual role in the US Treasury coming out of the Dodd Frank Act, there was a new office that was critical, the Office of Financial Research, and I was seconded into that role to help stand up the data function there. So it really, really was a fascinating, fascinating experience, to be involved in all that activity, that recovery of the economy at that period of time. And in that journey, we saw the role of the CDO increase, and companies being asked to create that role upon leaving the government. I went to Bank of America and held that role for a number of years. And then I landed at the EDM Council, and I’m now with the council eight years for the past four years as the chief executive. 

Nick: Well I like as you know for all that it’s almost like it’s a Forrest Gump of what your journey was if you ever say something began to evolve. You were right there at the you know, almost the right moment the liquid Forrest Gump was throughout the movie and his career. So, you know, we, when we come into the EDM Council, you know, a lot of our listeners, you know, I want him to understand the importance of that counsel, because you not only just became president, you were contributing to that, as you were going through this journey in your career, to be able to help set, you know, different standards and best practices. So, before we get into a lot of those, can you just give the folks an overview of the EDM Council itself, it’s important, and what it does for data practitioners? 

John: Sure. So the Council was formed in 2005, right at the beginning of this new role of chief data officer, so it was a group of about four or five companies that got together. My colleague, Mike Meriton, was one of the founding members. And the idea was to create a trade association or professional organization that would cater to this new emerging role of the chief data officer. From five members to today, we have over 300 corporate members globally, adding up to over 10,000 individual members across all of those companies. The council’s origins were in finance, because as we kind of alluded to, you know, that’s where the first demand was for data management, given the financial crisis. But what we’ve seen over the course of the growth of the council was that data is important to all industries. So now the council has, as its members, not only the majority of the large banks, many of the regional banks, but our membership is expanded into manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, retail organizations, so companies like Johnson, and Johnson, AstraZeneca, Coca, Cola, Verizon, are all have all become members of the council. And it makes sense, right? Because everybody is, sees the value in data, and everybody is challenged with managing and in the right way. So the council has grown significantly, in that respect to what we do for our members, basically, it falls into the following categories. We’re here to support the data professional, I do that with the idea of being responsible and how we manage information. So we provide best practice methodologies. And, Nick, I guess we’ll talk a little bit about that. Two key models. One is called the D CAM, the data capability assessment model, which is a framework for the way I like to describe it, what the best dressed data management program looks like, you know, from strategy to data governance, to data quality, all those capabilities needed to establish a good program, a very, very significant and large model that was just developed and just released is called the C DMC cloud data management capability framework. And that was an offshoot of D CAM. Now that organizations are moving to cloud, how do we best manage data in the cloud? And likewise, a series of best practices? How should data be resonant within the cloud? What about cross border cross residency and, and the data quality in cloud the access to data and the protection of sensitive data? All of those things are included in that framework? Well, no, I’m gonna say the one thing that I think is important for people to know is a lot of people look at, you know, organizations, and they look at and they provide these broad guidelines. What I like about the EDM Council, in which what your team is doing, is you provide actually the how, not just the why you should do it, but it’s the how you could be looking at it, and the opportunity, you know, to benchmark yourself against others, and not just others in your industry, but across industries, to what you say. And I think those all become really valuable when you take a look at knowing where I’m at and how I can improve. But what I need and how I need to do that seems to me has real value whenever I’ve worked with the EDM Council, you tell me how. And then you tell me those best practices. And it’s not just broad strokes, it’s fine point strokes that you guys are able to get into, and you work with your members. So I think that’s one of the things if we can, you know, for our listeners, this is an organization that when you go there, that you guys don’t mince words, you get very you can be strategy, but you guys can also get very tactical, when you work with your members to exert a plan, and that is one is that we are a neutral body. So we represent no individual company or product or whatever. So the nice thing about that is we can bring in subject matter experts from all different areas of the industry. And one of the key things that we do for our members is we facilitate collaboration. What I found in this field, Nick, was that data practitioners are very willing to work with each other and share their experiences. So in building these models, CMC, D CAM and some of the other things that we do, it’s done collaboratively with experts in industry. And the benefit that the members get out of that is not only participating in development, but then they are actually front and center with the best practice that comes out of that. So whether it’s aligned data management to GDPR, which is the privacy laws in Europe, or whether it’s, you know, coming off of the financial crisis and aligned to the Basel requirements, that BCBS 239 requirements, these are the things that members benefit from by participating. And I hear this all the time, the benefits they get from meeting and collaborating with others, and learning from each other. And really, it’s helped to elevate the rule. You know, as I said, my role is a CPR early on one or two of us. Now, there’s so many and so many different angles, that the benefits, they realized by communicating and collaborating is something that we help to bring to industry. Now let’s talk about that collaboration, especially in respect to what just, you know, the CBMC, because I mean, that’s a that’s a big movement, where we’ve gone from D CAM into CDM, seen talk a little bit about how you began to put that the framework together, or the people that actually best lack of a better term, the cohorts that actually came together to create the CTMC framework. And then we could talk a little bit more about the framework itself, and some of the nice insights that were produced from it, but just talk about that, you know, stay around that collaboration and how you put together these folks to actually work together and who they were. Yeah, it was, it was really fortuitous the way it happened. We had been in conversation with some of the big cloud providers, just I would say, informally over a number of years, about a year and a half ago, Google was in conversation with Morgan Stanley to build a cloud environment. Morgan Stanley, forward thinking said, Well, how do we create the best practices in this and their dialogue evolved into saying something along the lines of You know, we do this with every client? And we find ourselves repeating the same conversation? Would it be possible to bring some of the players together and kind of establish that common framework, so the two of them decided, let’s approach DDM Council and see if the council can create and facilitate a workgroup to discuss this activity? Nick, in a matter of a month or so we went from those two players to participation from almost 100 companies, over 300 individuals, all the major cloud providers, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, all participated, each of them putting forward a number of business professionals, engineers, technical people, we gathered almost all of the elite, you know, the large financial banks included, and that was also the tool. So Collibra, Informatica and a number of other tool providers participated, because if you think about the cloud ecosystem, it’s the cloud provider, the end user and all the tool providers that needed to bring that all together. Yeah, I know, a couple of my colleagues actually participated as well. And they were excited, again, I have just boggled my mind the amount of people that you’re able to assemble. I mean, that’s what this community really is, you just showed the importance of this community. Within a few months, you had 300 people, 100 organizations and every major cloud provider on board. And it’s just astounding. And what we were able to do was with the help of Capco, who provided project management support, again, there’s 100 companies that can name all of them. And they all participated. But that couple I mentioned, were really key to getting this going. We facilitated the structure, governance structure with a steering committee and work groups and so forth. And just to give you some metrics, a 1.5 year project, 3,100 individuals, 100 companies, 750 meetings, 45,000 hours of time spent, it was really an amazing, amazing collaboration. And the thing that really impressed all of us was from day one to 18 months later, there seemed to never be a reduction in attendance, everybody was up to it. And even we grew, you know, the meeting attendance in many cases. Well, I mean, just those stats are astounding, but just also to realize that in 18 months, you are able to get everyone to distill that framework that you put together. I mean, most companies, if you’re looking at a project of that size, and that magnitude, that’s usually a multi year project three years, four years down the road, you guys are able to do that within 18 months. That itself is amazing credit to all the participants who are, you know, fierce competitors in the market, but put down their competitive swords, came into the room and worked absolutely collaboratively together. So, you know, the big cloud providers I mentioned, right all, you know, compete fiercely in the market work together, I would be negligent. If I lied that snowflake snowflake was in that group to come into the room. Tremendous participation. KPMG, one of the consultancies through the lens of the auditor, provided so much insights and any other consultants about PwC EY, you know, again, I don’t want to leave anybody out and mentioning the participants. But all of these key players came together, what we ended up producing was a document, over 160 pages that provided guidance to a cloud implementation. And just briefly, the structure, how it’s made up of it provides these capabilities and stuff capabilities, the objectives of the best practice advice for the data practitioner, as well as advice for the CSP in the technology provider, from an auditor’s perspective, what we call challenge questions or audit questions. And then a scoring paradigm that takes the capability achievement from just being thought about all the way up to capability achieved. So the adoption of this from an auditor’s perspective, has been tremendous. The auditors are very excited by this. And here’s the best part, Nick, we have been reaching out to global regulators, and sharing this model with them. Almost two dozen regulators we’ve spoken to every single one of them has, as we’ve received fantastic feedback, you know, to raise the awareness of what we’re doing and have them think about how they can incorporate that into their thinking, Well, I think we need to take a look at the framework itself, there are six key areas to it, you’ve got the governance and accountability, which you’ve just talked about the ability to help the auditors, but there’s also work and how to catalog classification, accessibility and usage. My personal favorite, and ours is protection and privacy, data lifecycle and data and technical architecture. Those six areas are key to this deployment. But there’s also 14 key controls and automations that actually go within those six key areas that people can follow. So I mean, the framework itself, you know, when you first read through it, if someone has like 160 pages, but it’s comprehensive, but it’s also in, if you asked me, it’s actually in layman’s terms, there’s not a lot it, even though there could have been a lot of jargon. There’s a lot of things in there that you like, that makes sense, right? That is, it’s in business terms mostly. And it’s in Layman’s terms, which is what really surprised me the most especially, you know, when I first saw the first couple of copies coming through, I was like this, anyone can pick this up and take a look at it. Was that by design? I was about to say absolutely. So one of the things that we have found in all of our work is to make these best practices models digestible and practical. We don’t want to be a fearful and you know, in the cloud, no pun intended to be way up there where it’s not achievable. We don’t want to be overly prescriptive. So the model had to find that sweet spot that is practical, can be practically implemented, and yet structured enough that when you adhere to these best practices, you can demonstrate evidence of compliance to these best practices. So a key point of the model, Nick, is there are multiple uses of the model. And you pointed out the fact that the controls versus the main document, think about it from the perspective of the end user, the body of the document, will ask questions about how you’ve implemented your cloud environment from a data management perspective. And you pointed to some of the key components of it, that govern the data governance, accountability to data quality, classification, and cataloging, these are all critical elements not to get too nerdy metadata, right, that describes the data in the environment. And then how do you protect that? So if I’m a chief data officer, and I’m building a cloud environment, this is my cookbook. This is my guideline for how I have to implement each of these things in my cloud environment, to withstand audit to the standard regulatory review, and to be able to tell management with confidence, we are responsibly protecting the data. The other uses the 14 controls as a provider, whether you’re a CSP or your tool provider, I want to know just like if I’m in construction on building the building, that I’m using certified tools. I’m using the best tools available. So the advantage of the tool provider now is that they can have their tools certified against these best practices, which brings confidence into the industry. Now as a consumer, I know that I’m acquiring certified tools to build my environment. So you see there’s flexibility and usage on both sides of the, of the value chain or of the, of the stakeholder involvement in how it was built. So it’s really interesting to me, is what you just said there, which is confidence. And that’s the biggest part that  can provide people confidence, and now the CMC framework allows people to have that confidence that they’re doing the right thing. Or they are trying to do the right thing by both the business as well as their customer or the people that they serve. And that is one of the things that when you have frameworks like this, for our listeners, it becomes really important to be able to point to and say, Yeah, that makes sense for me. Right. And as a result, I’m following these guidelines. And those guidelines that you’re talking about with the Regulatory Commission, you guys are even going beyond some of that, because you had some exciting news at the beginning. Well, before we even started, the conversation that you’re taking with the Veniam Council has been asked to participate and how to manage other data components or data management with what you call it, climate change. So again, I think when you look at this, I’ve got a CBMC framework that provides me that and I’ve got, you’ve got this community, where you’re actually expanding people’s ability to manage data. And now you’re even expanding into, you know, the world that we want to be in, which is how we control our climate and the data that we can use to understand how best to do that. One of the key drivers for us is not just to look at data from a financial and marketing perspective, but how can we provide guidance around data for good, right? So think of it this way, and this is really key to cloud, the impact of the COVID 19 pandemic has greatly accelerated digitization, right, we all recognize that, in doing so, in a massive way, our personal information has never been more exposed in the cloud, where literally, you know, we can order a sandwich online without giving your personal data to some site. I think this is similar to, you know, the law profession, you know, lawyers have to take an oath, right to protect the information about their clients, I can almost envision this. And in the data field, where data professionals are being held to a higher standard, they have to ensure that the information they’re getting from the public is identified, protected, curated in the right way. There’s a tremendous ethical issue here around data. Are we using data in an ethical manner? Are we acquiring it ethically? The other side of responsible data management, as you alluded to, is how this data is being applied to social issues, and one of the biggest growing issues in the data space is ESG. environmental, social governance, and that includes climate. So we’ve been curating for the past year or workgroup, through the lens of the data practitioner, how best to manage this new ESG challenge. I think some of the statistics, I heard $45 trillion of assets under management fall under the ESG category. So are we managing this data properly classifying it responsibly? These are things now that the data professional, the CDO, another important aspect of their job, right? How do we, how do we report carbon footprint, how to report waste management things of that nature. And it was through that activity that we were introduced to a number of key players in industry, which has led to our invitation to the UN climate conference taking place next week at as you say that, again, it’s one of those, you know, as you work through different things, again, you’re right there on the cusp, that I think that’s what the tremendous advantage of being part of that community, the EDM councils community is all about.

Nick: So you know, for you, you’re having a good trip, hopefully to Glasgow and be able to contribute as well as comeback and, and I actually would love to find out more once you return, what the news is that you got there from Glasgow. 

John: Yeah, be happy to tap it to share that. It’s all very exciting and very, you know, personally rewarding. I mean, we, we really want to bring value to the industry. And in our cloud activity, as I alluded to, with so much data going into Cloud, how are we as an industry going to manage it responsibly and provide trust and I think that’s what CMC is going to be able to provide from a data management perspective that we’re doing on DCAM. And now let’s work on ESG. So it’s been a great experience working with all these individual professionals and industry. And as they say, I think our work is just beginning. 

Nick: So let me ask you this. Are there any myths that in your work with a counselor, or even overall that the CMC or what you’re doing with other organizations, are there any myths that you can debunk? When it comes to managing data in the cloud, or just managing data overall? 

John: Wow, I don’t know if you’d call this a myth, or it’s just a cultural shift. In many cases, I speak to many professionals in the industry, we still find ourselves at times trying to justify why we’re managing data. And I think at this point, hopefully, we’ve gotten over that barrier, right, where it’s now well understood that managing this asset isn’t just a nice to have, but it’s really a must, to survive in this industry. You know, it’s the classic example of Polaroid not going into digital photography, right? You know, if you don’t shift your thinking to the management in an efficient and responsible management of this asset, it’s going to be very hard to survive in this industry. So I don’t know whether that’s a myth or just a cultural shift, as they said, but I would say that that’s one of the key things, the more we can see the value of this, the more firms will adopt it, and start to progress towards, you know, a responsible organization around data, you know, but I think that’s actually a good point to make. It’s that trend. It’s that evolution. So you know, even the council itself started out with DCAM, which is mostly around a relational database. And now, with CBMC, you see the evolution into, yes, data is moving into the cloud, we need to evolve, we need to look at different ways that we have to, you know, protect or work with our data, when we move into different types of environments. So I think that’s a good point to make is we got to be willing to evolve, just like the Chief Data Officer role has evolved since you really began it to where we are today, which is important that evolution versus staying stagnant CTO, one of my colleagues referred to a couple of years ago CTO to CDO, I think we’re CDL x dot x Now, in terms of the evolution, we’ve seen it, we perform industry studies and surveys. And we’ve seen the trend, right, the responsibility to CDR went from, as you said, just kind of pigeon holed into just reference data, expanding now into analytics, artificial intelligence, machine learning. Now, tapping into the environmental data sets, the title is even evolving, you’ve seen new titles like Chief Data and Analytics officers, right. So it isn’t just the gathering of the data. That’s how you’re analyzing it. So I think that’s very exciting for the professional. And you know, we are not a stagnant profession at this point, it continues to evolve and grow and take on new challenges. And I think that’s great for people coming into this industry and new, as well as even the old folks like me, that have been in a while, there’s always something new to confront us that, you know, we have an opportunity to work on. 

Nick: Alright, so as we wind down our conversation, you know, in that vein, you know, what are the other big things that you see on the horizon, or we should have at least looking are on our radar screens as data professionals, data practitioners, as we take a look at the end, you know, that forward looking, what are some of those other things that you’re seeing, that are beginning to evolve? 

John: Well, clearly the data ethics issue is, I think, just beginning and let me take a moment, just explain that, and I’m going to use the automotive industry as an example, I’m sure, you know, you’re aware that your car has a GPS in it. And, you know, we know where we’re going. That’s just the beginning, we’ve done some work with some of the automotive industry, big companies, and I’ve learned through that experience, late model automobile, is a computer on wheels, there are 1000s of sensors on the automobile, pumping data into the cloud, in some cases, greater than a terabyte of data per car per day on everything from your acceleration speed, how quickly you turn, I was told by an executive of General Motors that in the event of an accident, they can tell where your eyes were looking and where your hands were on the wheel. Now thinking of the benefit that that provides industry, to minimize accidents, improve safety. But now look at the other flip of the coin, is that data available is that my data is private data. So there are huge privacy issues associated with that. And I think as the industry struggles to balance that out, and it will, again, what a great benefit to industry to have this information to continue and improve the safety of the driver, the safety of the automobile, you know, etc. And, and I think the whole concept of the, you know, the IoT is all around the vehicle and ways to capture all this information. It’s just, again, another opportunity for the professional to gather information, do the analytics, and continue to improve our experience. And I think what you bring up is very important when you’re thinking about ethics and you think about those things. It’s that intent of or the usage of the data and how it will be used, which we haven’t really, you know, many cases in the last 10 years, 10 years ago, we’re really thinking about it was always about let’s catalog it, let’s profile it. Let’s go find it versus how is it being used? What is the intent? What do we want? You know, is it for good? It is not so good, right? That’s that whole ethical question that’s coming. So that’s a good point to make, as you start to look at, it’s looking at that intent and usage that we have to keep our eyes on. And like every new technology, there are, there’s benefits. And then of course, there’s the challenges. So just to take that automotive example, one step further, I’m sure you’ve heard the expression, smart cities, so many cities are building these technical technology solutions. And one of them I heard was a city that wanted to devise a way to automate pothole repair. So the way they did that, as I mentioned about the automobile, there are sensors on the shock absorbers. So what they explored was, well, if they shockwaves over exceeds a certain tolerance, they can assume through artificial intelligence and machine learning, that that must be a panel in identifying that they immediately triangulate the GPS, they know where the pothole exists to send a crew out, and then repair the puddle naked, worked 100%, except one issue, who is driving the late model automobiles to more affluent neighborhoods. So inadvertently, they were separating the city based on economic criteria. So there’s a perfect example of no intention to use data in an appropriate way, but it created an inequality, how did they fix that problem? They put the sensors on the trash vehicles, you know, the sanitation vehicles, because they have to travel every part of the city. Now they blanketed the city with these capabilities of, you know, experiencing bottles, and they solved the problem. But that’s a great example of the data practitioner having to now think through these things, right to ensure that they are truly treating data responsibly and ethically. And what I like about that example is they didn’t give up, they knew or they knew it was right, and just saying, let’s not do it, they’re like, let’s find a way to make this work for everyone. 

Nick: That’s a very good point. And let’s talk a little bit about I know one of your favorite things is you’re a golfer. So I’d like to be able to just wind down our conversation and say, if you think back, what was your most memorable 18 holes? It could be the course, it could be the people you’re with, I don’t know. But what was that most memorable 18 holes that you’ve had? 

John: Well, for the golfers out there, we all dream of achieving certain milestones the first time you break 90, for the first time you break 90 in my game is average. And I’ve been shooting in the high 80s. And I always felt that that elusive, breaking and, hitting that 79 to 78 would never come. Well, this summer, it finally happened and it happened twice. And of course, I kept the golf ball and wrote my little notes on insight. You know, without going into all the details. Breaking 80 was a tremendous thrill for me. But I do want to share one golf memory that I’ll never forget, as I met Phil Mickelson, he was the guest at an event. And what an amazing individual, we got to play two holes of golf with them. What an incredibly kind of person who came up to me shook my hand. He knew my name. So John, you’re a chief data officer. What is it that a chief data officer does? And I’m sitting there and this is when he was at the top of his game thinking, here’s like the second best golfer in the world only second to Tiger Woods, asking me about my role as the chief data officer, but he was genuinely interested and what skill that man has even today, I mean, he he demonstrated ways of hitting the ball that we could only dream of. So I gave you my best score, but my best experience was that 20 minutes later, I got to walk down a fairway with Phil Mickelson. So I’m gonna go with one more. So in your ideal Foursome, I’m going to say it’s you, Phil Mickelson, and you get to pick two more, who would be in your ideal for us and let’s remain to the style. I’m going to pick two generations, of course, Tiger and I’ll go back to Trevino. I loved watching him play. I thought he had a fantastic personality. And I’ve heard from a lot of friends who’ve gone on outings. He, like Mickelson, was one of the kindest; he would walk down and shake people’s hands and joke and, you know, there’s nothing like an athlete who just, you know, ingratiate themselves with the fans and he was one of them. So that would be my ideal foursome. 

Nick: Alright, And the last question is, what course would you like to be with that? What course would you like to play with that four-ball. 

John: So every golfer’s bucket list has St Andrews. So someday, someday, I hope to play it. And I hope it’s foggy, because that’s what it’s known for. So a foggy day at St. Andrews would be would be my ultimate homerun. 

Nick:All right. Well, John, it’s been a pleasure having you on the show. And I look forward to hopefully having you on in future episodes, to go through the progress that the that the EDM Council is making, and also all the other good things that you guys are doing. So again, thank you for being here. We really appreciate it. And again, for those of you that are out there, there will be links in the description that will link you to the EDM Council site as well as the CBMC framework. Once again. Thank you, John, for being here. I can It was a pleasure. And thank you for listening to InConfidence, a podcast for the community of data leaders. We hope you found your time with us and John Bottega. In the episode description as we said, you will find the links to the EDM Council and the CBMC framework, we also would enjoy your feedback.