Episode 11: Best Practices for Placing Value on Data

Intro: Welcome to InConfidence, the podcast for data ops leaders. In each episode, we asked thought leaders in futures to break down the topics and trends concerning it and data professionals today, and to give us their take on what the data landscape will look like tomorrow. Let’s join the data conversation.

Tina: Hi, my name is Tina Tang, and I’m the host of the podcast InConfidence. I’m here today with Tina Rosario. She’s the Chief Data Officer at SAP for the EMEA region. Tina has many years of deep expertise in data. And as a data professional, she has over 25 years of experience in business process reengineering, defining business impact and leading transformation programs at large enterprises. She’s had executive positions ranging from business operations, consulting, management and corporate strategy. She is an expert at building best practice enterprise programs, defining data management innovations, and driving data technology development, as well as managing large teams of data stewards, and data operations professionals. Tina, I’d like to welcome you to the show. 

Tina R: Hi, nice to hear you. 

Tina: It’s been a few years, right? For sure. And in a different setting. Virtual setting.

Tina R: Yeah, wish it was face to face actually. 

Tina: Yeah, well, I guess it is face to face, but not in the flesh. So we’ll we’ll work on that one of these days, I’ll get on that TGV and get over there.

Tina: So I wanted to start out by hearing your journey, because I think it’s quite interesting, and that our guests would love to hear how you came into this role. And can you share with us that journey? 

Tina R: Sure. I mean, it wasn’t kind of the straight and narrow path to a CDO. So I don’t come from a technology background per se. I was in management consulting after graduate school and had a blast traveling around the world and meeting with customers. And a friend of mine went to work at SAP and raved about what a great company it was. And SAP has started to hire management consultants like myself, to be able to offer more strategic consulting services to its clients. And so it’s almost like creating an entrepreneur group within SAP around business consulting. And that was fabulous for many years that I came back from maternity leave, and didn’t want to travel as much, and was looking to do something different and was tapped on the shoulder to be part of one of our strategic board initiatives to drive internal simplification, and one of those was around data management. And because I had a background in CRM and consulting, they asked me to join that program. And we created the business case and looked at the root cause of our data issues, and put together a roadmap for change for SAP. And you know, as it happens, many times those kinds of programs and project work turn into real jobs, full time jobs, which it did for me. So that grew into a full time role in the Data Program, and then various roles and taking leadership roles within the data program at SAP.. So it was kind of fun for me, because I was there at the very beginning when it was just kind of you know, a pain point a challenge, and then to see it mature and continue to deliver value and to be respected part of the COO organization was a lot of fun. 

Tina: I caught that word value. I think that, you know, you had a very unique approach, and which later became widely recognized across a lot of industries, which, you know, sort of segued into your current role. But can we talk about what was that value that you experienced in the data management team? 

Tina R: I mean, I agree, it’s such an important word when it comes to thinking about data. And considering, you know, how do you monetize some place a value on the data work and the data itself? And we’d started the initiative with the business case, really looking at, you know, where can we drive efficiencies within SAP through high quality, real time fit for purpose data, and where Weren’t we able to deliver that in the business. And so that led to cost base analysis of understanding how we can simplify those different business processes with higher quality data. And then we were able to put a finger around that

Tina R: To give it real value and meaning to share that with the executives as part of the business case. So we focus primarily on cost efficiencies, cost avoidance, particularly around deduplication. And we were able to put a value around each record. So we could say that, you know, for each record that we touched and improved, was saving the company, you know, a certain amount of money and, and as those processes became more efficient, and as we put in more automation and workflow, we were able to quantify the value back to the business, but I wouldn’t say it was just the ability to quantify it was really the sense that we had an important job to play in improving the business. And it wasn’t just certainly, you know, wasn’t just a “Oh, yeah, we’ve got to do some data cleanup work”, it was very much centered around what is the business outcomes that we can drive, right. Whereas the business expecting us to help them be more efficient, effective, drive additional revenue. And so we really looked at the program from the lens of the business outcomes. 

Tina: That’s really fascinating, because I think a lot of people associate data management data governance, with the word remedial. But what you’re telling me is that it was very much forward thinking, like, what will the impact be? How can we make this outcome better? Which I think is pretty different from most data management, organizational attitudes, or even how, you know, an executive management team would see what would be possible with such a team? 

Tina R: Yeah, I mean, and I would, I would add to that you’re spot on Tina, I would add to that, that one of the ways in which we were able to drive value was through engaging in business transformation initiatives. So not just being remedial, of course, you know, there’s still the need for maintenance and data quality management and ongoing cleanup, because we’re talking about data that decays. But there’s also a real opportunity to help the company transform through data. And if you think about the big projects that companies undertake, maybe it’s moving into a new market, or releasing a new set of products, or embracing a new technology, like moving to the cloud, or if it’s, you know, anything, that’s a real strategic change, there’s always a data piece to that, you know, I believe there should always be a date of workstream in those various projects, that ensures that whatever the transformation is going to lead to, that the data will be there lockstep, and that the data won’t hold back that transformation, that the data will be ready and well positioned, the right data will be there. And that’s a way to generate values through these transformation initiatives. And to be able to quantify the value as a part of those programs. So if those programs have a business case, then carve out, you know, a little piece of that business case, around the data capabilities and the data outcomes that are needed. 

Tina: So your experience running data management, data governance, did innovation for SAP operationally helped you segue into your current role, which sort of did it almost grow out of the previous one, because I know that you spent, you know, once the word got out, how much impact you’re having within SAP? I think some people go, you know, customers got wind of that, and we’re asking you to consult and advise them. I think that was happening quite frequently, if I remember, and maybe there were a few Hawaii trips, you know, to club involved with that.

Tina R: Yeah, I mean, I’ve always loved you know, to talk to customers, I feel sometimes that that’s my, the real core of who I am, has been very much on the consultative side. So I would, I would be asked to speak to customers and share the SAP story around data. And that was at the request of the sales team was also at the request of the CFO or the CEO, who we really think that SAP has, as a best practice to share, I would say, particularly around data. And we were a little bit ahead of the curve when it came to centralizing data functions to your point about quantifying the value of data, embracing new tools and technologies around data. So we had some, I think, interesting messages to share with our customers. And I did that for one particularly large global customer and I did it was a group of executives around the table. And after that meeting, Tina, they said, We need you to do this full time. We need to create a role for you because what you’re sharing is

Tina R: so important because so many of our customers struggle with this topic. And you’ve got a lot of value that you can bring to those customers in an advisory way. And we were starting to create these types of industry advisors and line of business advisors. And so it naturally fit into that approach that SAP was taking and how it was engaging with its customers. And I jumped at the chance, particularly because I just moved to Paris. And I really enjoyed working with European customers, and really felt that I could get back into a customer facing role. But I didn’t exactly give up all of the operational work just yet, I still stay very close to what’s happening in the business inside SAP, as well as bringing the voice of the customer to our development team, who don’t necessarily have the time to go out and talk to customers. And so I was another channel for them to hear what some of those challenges were, what some of the expectations were. So to help our products develop and grow to be more to be more effective with what our customers were asking for. So that’s a lot of fun, I wear a lot of hats, but it’s a lot of fun. And the certainly the topic of data is, is changing every day, and as being very innovative. And there’s so much that we still can do and need to do that it’s an exciting place to be. 

Tina: So the ability to speak, operations, utility, plus the ability to speak business with customers critical to really driving that value. I also wonder, you know, when you move from the United States to Paris, were there any things you know, like anything about the culture in your new home, that may have influenced your, you know, recent thinking about data, you know, philosophy for, you know, management, you know, governance, privacy and utility? I mean, like how it’s being used? Did your views change at all, when you moved? 

Tina R. Yeah, so I mean, huge culture difference between the US and France or in Europe in general, more so than I had expected. But I, you know, we jumped in. And certainly there are a lot of customers of operate out of Europe that are global. And so some of them have their headquarters here, and some of them don’t. But I realized that there is this sense of, it’s the sense of embracing the value of individualism that I see here in Europe, more so than in other parts of the globe. And for me, personally, you know, it was it took a it took a bit of time to get acclimated into the language into the the way of life. But I came here, it’s really interesting. Tina, I came here, at the perfect, what I would say is the perfect storm, right, it was the perfect time GDPR had just been released, the government and the US had just gone through a significant change. The government’s here, or just Brexit had just happened, the EU is starting to gel and come together. And you know, here I am, you know, with with eyes open, eyes wide open, to absorb and learn and understand, you know, how does all these changes that are going on around the globe and in Europe, impacting my work around data, and I saw firsthand the impact around data privacy, and the impact around having more regulations having more of a concern for the individual, very much, I think driven out of the EU and GDPR, in particular, and then seeing how other parts of the world are embracing that same similar regulations. I mean, I certainly wish that, that we as a people of the world could come up with a common set of regulations around how to protect the data of the individual, and what are the rights around the individual privacy. Without that though, we have pockets and different regulations. And so it became very important to me and my work to learn and to start to get engaged, I would say again, you know, perfect, perfect timing. And then very similarly, as we started to explore artificial intelligence, and so I started to think about, you know, the ethical concerns there and getting involved from the SAP side on ethics boards and writing policies. And that also I think, was very timely and continues to to be a topic that is top of mind for all of us and data. And so again, it makes the job for a CDO, you know, very interesting because things are constantly in flux, you know, we had GDPR and privacy we had changes in government regulations and, and points of view and

Tina R: And we now had COVID. And so, you know, so many of these different initiatives are very data centric. And so data needs to be, you know, right there right in the middle of it. And that puts the CTO right in the middle of it. 

Tina: Right. And speaking of the COVID response, and how the government and France managed, the, you know, not just the care and the precautions, but how they started to bring people back to societal life. Could you talk a little bit about that? Because I remember that it was, like you said, it was data driven, wouldn’t have been possible without data? 

Tina R: Yeah, I mean, just interesting for me being an American living in France, where the culture response to COVID, here in France was quite different and interesting. And it was quite an interesting exercise to see how different cultures responded to the, to the pandemic. And you know, what they measured, and how they were able to calculate the data around the individual, the health of the individuals, how do they track and monitor vaccination status. And, and it was really, I think, eye opening for data professionals to and, and of course, as data professionals, we were really interested in looking at all the data and collecting the data and, you know, thinking about, you know, what’s the source of truth, who has the most accurate data and who’s reporting with what source. And that I think also became an interesting exercise. It was also interesting to see how the government governments responded to the crisis and how they were able to here and Europe in particular, how they were able to develop processes, and techniques. And I hate to call them regulations. But there were certainly guidelines around what was safe for the individual, and what was safe for the good of others. Really interesting to think about culturally how different countries and I think Europe in particular, feels and cares about others within their community. And I saw that, you know, firsthand where people in my neighborhood, for example, completely compliant, right, when the masks rule came about, you know, no question, everybody’s wearing masks, there wasn’t a lot of pushback here in France. I mean, there were some, but not to the extent that I saw another in other parts of the world, and you saw something different a different experience for the Asian communities and different experience in the Latin American communities. So it, it was all over the map. And it was quite interesting to understand and see, where does the data fit in here? And how is that data tracked and used? And at the same time, how is it protected? How are we protecting the rights of the individual? And how are we ensuring that the individual is able to remain healthy, but at the same time is, is a bit considerate of helping other people stay healthy? And then I think on top of all of that, is the data surrounding the hospitalizations, the mortality rates, and the tracking of how the virus spread across the globe? And frankly, I don’t think we’re done yet. Right? I’m still hearing that there are new variants and new processes and different cultures to be able to keep control of the spread. So really a great place to be I think, you know, fast forward 10 years, someone’s going to do a case study around how did the different cultures respond to COVID? And how important was data in the management of the pandemic? Because it was front and center? 

Tina: Yeah, I agree. I think that that story is still being written. And I can, I can already see it, because I think it’ll be told through data visualizations, like, just like, we’ve been seeing statistics and trends being presented to the public all along, but I can’t wait to be able to double click into them. 

Tina R: Yeah, I mean, it was sort of fun, you know, being at home and gathering different sources of data and trying as a professional to normalize them into something that made sense to us, you know, at home, not just, you know, in the world of work, but what made sense to us, you know, how are we feeling about these numbers that we were seeing, and it’d be a really interesting study down the road. And just the pure volume

Tina: talk about big data that is, you know, probably going to be one of the biggest datasets that we have, I mean, have a very, you know, focused situation, not just like, where are you going across the internet that kind of, you know, data but you know about individuals

Tina R:  Yeah, and maybe perhaps a forcing function for different organizations and different communities to treat data differently, with a keener eye to privacy where there probably wasn’t, you know, a stronger regulation, realizing? Well, I’ve got to start collecting data that is a bit sensitive, and should be protected. What should the regulations be? Because there there weren’t any in place in some cases, 

Tina: Right? Because I wonder, even when I take, you know, like a at home test, you know, my well, not to get too gross, but you know, my bodily fluids are going off into a lab. I don’t know what that is, but what are they going to do with it? Right? Like, yes, they’re going to perform the tests. But do they have my DNA now? No, they have my name, they have my social security number, they know where I live, and they could match it up with my blind patterns, my behavior, even you know, what I asked, I won’t say the name, because she’ll hear me and she’ll respond. What I asked my, at home AI,

Tina: like, all of that data, theoretically, right, could be linked up, who knows what you could find out there? And who is using it? So I think that it’s especially in the United States where we don’t have GDPR. I mean, we have CCPA, now in California, but it doesn’t quite permeate. And it’s cultural. Right? It’s cultural. But, you know, speaking of numbers, want to segue a little bit back to SAP. And we’ll look SAP is, is not, it’s not the biggest company in the, you know, tech company in the world, but its impact is quite profound. I wanted to talk a little bit about, you know, the impact in its scope, and mission critical nature of what SAP does, how does that, you know, influence employees at SAP to, you know, how does that come across and imbue the work that you do? 

Tina R: I mean, it’s, it’s pretty cool. And it’s pretty rewarding to think about the impact that SAP has on the world, on all these global companies and how they operate. And, and I’ll go back to COVID, as an example, to think about how SAP jumped in and supported the organizations, the customers in their drive to address the challenges of the pandemic, whether that be supporting the development of the vaccinations, supporting the development of the application for tracking vaccines, supporting the need to collect Big Data and manage the big data around the numbers and the volumes, supporting the hospitals in checking in checking out managing their patient flow, etc, to think that SAP was right there and trusted partner with these various organizations. And to think that when you go into a store that, you know, 99% of the retailers out there in the world are running SAP, and that, you know, most of the largest companies in the world, almost 100% of the large global companies of the global 100 Run SAP, and it gives us I think, a sense of pride in the fact that, you know, we are adding value back to these organizations, and that we are making an impact in the way in which they operate and run.  I also think, too, that it’s a little bit of on the data side is that there’s a real opportunity to use data for good, I love that I love to use that phrase data for good. And to be able to see that SAP wants to help these companies use the data in the right way. And that feels it’s part of our core values. We want companies to be more intelligent. We want companies to be more sustainable. It’s in our marketing messaging, because we believe in it. And I think everybody in the company embraces those core values. And that’s what makes us successful. 

Tina: I think maybe the German heritage, you know, kind of starts from the top and makes his way through the organization. Maybe it has something to do with it as well. 

Tina R: Yeah, I think there’s very much this approach within SAP around the individual, that there’s quite a lot of emphasis, it’s always been there around ensuring that our employees are well taken care of that they are respected, that they are valued. And that’s as long as I’ve been here 20 plus years. It has been a core part of the way we work at SAP. And we also because I think of of our heritage and because we are technology developers that we bring that into our toolset, but we also bring it into our policies. And we also you know, put in the structure around

Tina R: out, you know, how do we make that those different ideas operational, so that it makes it easy for not just our customers to do business with us, but that our employees are, you know, have opportunities to, to be more effective to do their work more simply to have more choice. That’s one of the best things I think about SAP is that it encourages and allows for choices to be made across every part of the business. So after COVID, you know, the one of the first things they did was said, Okay, you have a choice of where and how and when you want to work. And that’s across the globe. And you have a choice around, you know, your priorities for how you want your your benefit package to look. And I think that that respect for the individual is something that has come from the founders, we’re celebrating our 50th birthday this year. And I think it is, it has come from, you know, how SAP started as a core of friends, a core of developers in Germany, who, you know, had the same values, and that’s carried forward all the way through to today. 

Tina: That’s right. SAP was a startup,

Tina R: yeah, there you go. Yeah. crazy, isn’t it to think about how far we’ve come right over 100 something 1000 employees and, you know, reach all over the globe. But I think in our journey, we never stayed. We never steered away from our vision and what was important to us. And that’s one of the reasons why I’ve stayed as long as I have is because the value of the values of the company resonate with my own personal values. And also they’ve made some pretty good decisions in terms of who they’ve hired. And, you know, and who’s been leading and running the company from a day to day perspective, there’s a lot of confidence in the leadership of the company right now, which is great. 

Tina: Yes. And that that really sets the tone. And wondering how you were talking about how data is used, you know, to make decisions? And what about data and analytics in saps operations? Is there anything you can, you know, share with us around the different decisions and policies internally that go into how you how you manage whether it was the approach, as well as how it’s used?

Tina R: Yeah, I mean, a few years ago, we combined the data management capabilities and the analytics capabilities into one organization. And then on top of that, we brought in the process office and the process capabilities. So it became a very collaborative organization collaborative way of working across all the constructs of processes, data and analytics, I think that was really added a lot of value to our work. And in particular, we started off in the data world focusing on customer data. That’s where SAP was having the biggest challenges many, many years ago. And I don’t think we’ve stayed straight away from that as the highest priority for us. You know, being very customer centric, then means that we need to have data, accurate data around those customers. And we need to be able to get insights around those customers in terms of how are they using our tools, and how satisfied are they etc. And so customer continues to be a very important construct of the data and analytics and process work. I would also add that we a few years ago, had a strategic initiative around running simpler, that was kind of one of our taglines, one of those transformation programs was SAP runs simpler. And we did that for not just our own internal processes, making them more efficient and more easy to consume and, and more self serving. But we also share that with our external customers to help our customers do business more easily and more simply with SAP. And so for that we focused quite a lot on our financial processes around invoicing, for example, or around our contracting processes to make it make it simpler for our customers to digest the bill of materials, for example. And so that required certainly quite a lot of data. But it also required the ability to kind of understand and get insight into what’s working well, and what isn’t working so well. And are we able to be more process efficient, particularly with SAP’s strategy to move to the cloud. So we spent a lot of time understanding how can we run simpler now in the cloud? And what does that mean for us internally and to our customers? And so quite a lot of effort around that. One of the best stories that I have around analytics comes from our CFO who’s always been one of our Best sponsors around data. And of course, with financial analytics and other enterprise wide analytics. And he’s the biggest fan of one of our tools that we call the digital boardroom or a dashboard or our cockpits. And he literally uses this tool in his day to day work. And as the first one to tell you that, he’s able to now drill down and, you know, get into the weedy details of where, where there are opportunities to improve. And as well as where there are insights. And I think that’s fabulous, to be able to see that it’s really starting from the top, it’s really starting at the executive and working its way down throughout the organization and into the operation. And we’ve always been very KPI centric, and we’ve always been focused on you know, how do we measure impact, and I think we’re still doing that work of being completely transparent around what value we’re bringing, and where we still have opportunities. I mean, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s a constant opportunity, I think, from an SAP perspective, to look at opportunities to innovate, and think about, you know, where is it that we want to go with the business? And are we ensuring that processes and data and analytics are right there, you know, as a part of that transformation. And that we and I said this to a customer the other day said, you know, one of our our jobs in the data world, is to ensure that the processes around data run more effectively, and we want to simplify, but we certainly want to ensure that those processes aren’t broken. Right. And I think that’s, that’s kind of the point of view of what we’re doing everything that we can around data quality and governance and data management. But ultimately, it’s all about ensuring that the processes run effectively, and that the end result is going to deliver value to the organization. So I don’t think we’ve ever lost sight of that. Right. And that we continue to track progress against business impact KPIs. 

Tina: Well, speaking of business impact, and opportunities, you know, in the regulations have been evolving worldwide, in different regions, countries, jurisdictions, even with you know, within countries, have you seen that? What kind of impact have you seen that have in, you know, who your customers are, you know, and also maybe for SAP and your your partners is, is there increasing concern over individual privacy and these regulations that are coming up in all parts of the world? How’s it What have you been seeing? 

Tina R: Absolutely, I think every every customer that I talked to, now has some processes, some programs around privacy, security, traceability, depending on the industry. So it’s widespread. And it’s widespread, I think, because of the significant risks and the significant risks of financial loss brand loss, the impact is huge. So it is a bit of a forcing function. These regulations are a bit of a forcing function for these companies to step it up. And to have tighter processes, a tighter capabilities around privacy and security and et cetera. I see some trends today around more data sharing data marketplaces, data transfers, particularly as we’re looking at the cloud. And with that, I think is going to come some additional guidelines around how that data can and should be shared, particularly as we see that across the pond. So between America and Europe, for example, SCP is involved with the European data privacy commission, and the they just announced a transatlantic data privacy framework, it just came out a couple of days ago. And and I think we’ll start to see more of that where it is looking at not just regulations within a particular region or area of the globe, but now across parts of the globe, where we see more collaboration happening with more global customers, more more global datasets, more big data sets. And I think that we’ll see more trends towards that end. I wish though, Ms. I think I said this before with COVID. I wish that we would have some sense of global policies. I know there’s no board to do that. But it would be a lot easier for all of us if we had global regulations, and that if we could get past some of the culture or boundaries and and think about what what’s really at the core of the rights of the individual. And if we could all rally around that it would be in a common consistent way. It would be so much easier than trying to remember and learn and build in rules and processes to support all these.

Tina R: Different levels of regulatory and compliance. 

Tina: Yeah, it seems like the promise of free flow and you know, of the benefits that you could have the efficiencies would be reason enough to bring people to the table to create that global policy. Right. Can you imagine how easy that would be? 

Tina R: Politics are getting in the way. I believe that.

Tina: I think we’re a ways off from that. But it’s a great vision. It’s a great, I mean, we have to work towards the vision, right? How do we get close to do it? So I wanted to ask you about the work that you do. Outside of SAP, which is for women in big data, you are the president and founder of the European, Middle Eastern Asian Asia region, for women in big data, and you’ve had a lot of success in finding birds of a feather, you know, people, women, men who have been really drawn to the mission. Could you talk a little bit about that? 

Tina R: Yeah. So when I, when I came to Paris, the women in Big Data Program asked me to take on this regional leadership role, and to be able to spread the message and to develop additional chapters and presence throughout this region. And I was super excited to, to jump to jump to that and to participate on top of my day job, because it’s so important. And a little bit like, why I’ve stayed at SAP, it’s the values, that means something to me. And the values are why I invest my time and talent in these kinds of programs and organizations, because I believe in it, and women in big data is just one of those. And thankfully, we’ve had success in building up chapters across this region. And it’s primarily about finding those that share the passion and finding those that have similar values, and finding those that that understand the value of volunteering, and not just the value for the cause, which in our cases, to promote diversity and to reduce the diversity gap. But it’s also about expanding your network and learning some new skills, meeting new people. And so, you know, I try and present it as a way that it’s beneficial across all sides, and all different facets, I find that I’ve particularly those of us that have children, particularly those of us that have little girls are quite motivated for this kind of a program, because we see that the opportunities aren’t always apparent for girls in, in data science and analytics are the field of big data. And those of us that are doing the work, see how valuable it can be and how important it is to have a seat at the table and to have a diverse workforce around data and analytics. And it’s great for us to be able to transfer that to the younger population. And so we do quite a lot of that work here in Europe, we’ve got, you know, great chapters, there are some really strong men and women who are involved in the program, and they’re motivated. And I try and support them and lift them up, because that’s what’s important. And the other thing that I really like about women in big data is that has this kind of entrepreneurial spirit, Tina, you know, this is that, you know, all I do from my side is help set up the chapter and introduce them to some sponsors and, and then off they go. And they are able to meet and serve the needs of their local communities in the way that they know is going to work the best. So in their language, within their culture, within the the needs of their particular community based on on their knowledge. And I just let them run with it, and they’re doing such a fabulous job, actually, around the globe of the chapters are doing really great work. And what I’m most proud of this past year is that the chapters are starting to work more collaboratively. And so we’re doing some joint events, we had an event, strangely enough between the chapter in Israel and the chapter in Spain. And they work together to have an event around inclusion and belonging, which I thought was really, really cool. And, and because of COVID we’re starting to do more things virtually. And so we’re opening up some doors for without the boundaries of travel limitations. And so that’s been kind of interesting, and building up a bigger presence around social media and doing podcasts and, and all of that I think has helped the program evolve. But a few of our chapters now are getting back to face to face events. Munich just had an event this past week and and I know they’ve missed it, they’ve missed them the networking part of it right the opportunity to to build friendships and

Tina R: and to work together on the cars. And so it’s it’s also going to be interesting to see how do we handle the the hybrid approach of doing some online events, some face to face events, but, but we keep growing, we just actually launched a chapter in in Berlin. And we’re doing some really good work in South Africa to which is promising. 

Tina: Fantastic, great, so uplifting and also increasing the diversity of thought and perspectives in the field of big data is important for the outcomes. So it’s not only the right thing to do, from a societal perspective, but even for the quality of the, you know, the work that we do professionally, there’s benefit for countries for businesses for institutions. Thank you. Hey, it’s been so fun to talk to you on this podcast. And yeah, hope to have you back sometime and give us an update on everything. Thank you for listening to in confidence the podcast for data ops leaders. 

Tina R: Take care everyone stay well. 

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